sa国际传媒

How do you create change? Do you lead, watch, take part or just shout loudly?

All of these activities have their place in campaigning for change and shifting the status quo or addressing a wrong.

sa国际传媒 President Sarah Brown brings the聽second series of聽her聽Better Angels podcast聽to a close by talking to the former president of Tanzania,聽Jakaya Kikwete;聽New York Times columnist and author聽Nicholas Kristof; British comedian聽Nish Kumar;聽补苍诲听Toos Heemskerk-Schep, an anti-trafficking activist from the Netherlands.

Sarah says everyone can be an activist. She adds:聽鈥淧eople from all walks of life, all countries, all professions can get involved.鈥�

Jakaya Kikwete was Tanzania鈥檚 president from 2005 to 2015 and was also president of the African Union in 2008-09. He had to oversee massive change in the East African country 鈥� and is particularly proud of the progress on education.

He tells Sarah:聽鈥淚 have a passion for growth. One of the things that is critical for the growth of a nation is education.鈥�

When he became leader, only 6% of children were going on from primary to secondary school.

鈥淪o we had to catch up,鈥� he says. 鈥淚f you want to create a middle class you have got to go beyond primary school.

鈥淲ell, it worked. It was amazing. The student population increased in secondary school from 524,000 to 1.9 million.鈥�

Kikwete says Tanzania is now 鈥渄oing justice to our children and our young people.鈥�

has written a lot聽about human and women鈥檚 rights 鈥� 补苍诲听won two Pulitzer Prizes for his journalism.

Sarah asks him about the balance between聽being an independent observer 补苍诲听wanting to bring about change.

鈥淚 write about issues that bother me and where I think it can make a difference,鈥� he says.

鈥淚 think that it鈥檚 about being transparent and disclosing. I also think that it is about recognising where your comparative advantage lies.

鈥淚 do think that where I add value is in writing about problems, not in helping individuals here and there.

鈥淏ut I also think that if I come across a child who is dying of malaria I鈥檓 not going to sit back and pull out my pad and camera and chronicle the child鈥檚 death when I can take that child to the local hospital.鈥�

How does laughter help when you鈥檙e discussing the need for聽change? That鈥檚 the question Sarah puts to when she catches up with him in Edinburgh during his latest comedy tour.

He confesses that聽he is wrestling with how to give his audience what they want to hear about today鈥檚 issues but also to more personally as an activist 鈥� particularly on the issue of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union.

鈥淚鈥檒l continue writing and performing comedy but the next step for me is to actually start putting my money where my mouth is and start turning up to demonstrations,鈥� he says.

鈥淲e are at a tipping point politically 鈥� it鈥檚 starting to come to a point where we could end up on the wrong side of history if we don鈥檛 pull our finger out.鈥�

Sarah has some very interesting tips for Nish on how he can focus his activism.

Toos Heemskerk-Schep is country director of聽. Sarah speaks to her in a noisy聽Amsterdam cafe where the charity聽provides culinary training for victims of trafficking.

She asks Toos how the wider community can become engaged in projects like this.

鈥淪o often we think that those type of activities needs to be done by social workers,鈥� says Toos.

鈥淏ut we are so grateful in the Netherlands now that we have so many businesses wanting to have a social corporate responsibility. They give time to us.

鈥淲e have law firms who give their time in order to help us with all kinds of different papers and documents. We have bookkeepers who give us time in helping us with the bookkeeping. We have companies who open up their doors for internships for the women 鈥撀燼nd this is huge.

鈥淲e can train, we can educate a woman 鈥撀燽ut they need to go out there and they need to get back that confidence in normal businesses. That鈥檚 really what it鈥檚 all about. We should really join all those forces together.鈥�

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To subscribe via iTunes from this page, hit the iTunes icon above.

If you are on a desktop, you鈥檒l need to select 鈥榁iew in iTunes鈥� and once the iTunes programme is open, you鈥檒l be able to switch on a subscription.

Alternatively, if you have a podcast player that subscribes via RSS, you can click the RSS icon on any episode or use this link to get a full feed of all the episodes.